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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
So where are them minutes to the summit meeting in july?
You see I actually think its time for us to look at what has been done in the last three months,
No change in hanger functionality, "ship spinning".
No change in pricing of nex.
No improvement with communication.
Ridiculously sparse devblogs combined with dissapearing acts from the devs.
No content or improvements to gameplay in expansions.
Failure to deliver the racial captains quarters as promised,
manipulation of the july minutes creating yet another point of conflict and leading to a failure to release tehm.
functionality such as fittings taken away so they can be charged for later.
QEN's cancelled.
What was it hilmar said, now is the time we look at what the players do and not what they say? well the players are voting with their subs and logging off. CCP has done nothing since the july summit in any of the areas they promised they would try to improve.
So as for this little meeting yeah Ive heard it all before, mittens is deluded anyway but the rest of the CSM being so suckered by yet another "emergency meeting" is actually a dissapointment. I thought they had more intelligence than to fall for the same bull twice.
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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
I bow to your superiority mittens!
and the rest of the point i mentioned?
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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.13 12:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sorry for the scepticism but, you had a summit in july where a lot of assurances were given by both CCP and CSM with regards communication, the return of functionality, a wider range of nex pricing and a commitment to do better.
The "minutes" of that emergency meeting are only released after months of wrangling and prove to be a most banal and uninformative press release rather than a detailed account of a meeting.
There has been no return of previous functionality, I still cant spin my ship, I still cant save more than 50 fits.
Nex pricing remains unchanged.
Yet from the triumphalist backslapping on this thread you would swear the CSM had actually achieved somthing tangible since July. Their own blogs prove that is not the case.
CSM is being used as a firebreak between CCP and its customers,
How the CSM or CCP can claim to be achieving anything when we are witnessing the largest decline in subsciptions and player numbers in eve memory?
"Pretty words" mean nothing, you achieved nothing in july so why should I accept your going to achieve anything with more meetings more blah blah blah? |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.13 13:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
By functionality I was refferring to the old functionality of the hanger as has been pointed out by others. I do not expect it "NOW" I do however expect some indication of when! Its three months since that summit meissa so its hardly now is it.
Communication between CCP and the players has not improved. I have no complaints about CSM communication all of you including mittens post or blog regularly.
This new meeting is not a success it is an admission that the July meeting wasa failure. If you had been successful in July there would be no need for more emergency meetings to discuss player concerns.
Since the purchase of more fits was talked about in the Fearless article amongst other services that would be for sale for aur and I know you were personally emailed regarding it before the summit in july; Im very dissapointed that you those services was not part of the agenda.
Im not a bittervet or a forum warrior, I would have prefferred to spend a morning off work getting blown up in delve rather than on the forums.
Pretty words do mean nothing I have choked on a surfeit of pretty words recently, It is time for some red meat |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.13 20:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Two step wrote:Malcanis wrote:tika te wrote:Quote:We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA. all said; usless thread with more empty promises.. So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret? Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better ForeverGäó in one meeting? Uh, yes, they are. I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.
Then your completly missing the point arent you. This is not hostility its apathy and disillusion towards a process of blah blah that most people have absolutly no faith in. July achieved absolutly nothing. Comments like this CSM is going to achieve more than previous ones at this moment in time are as delusional as any $1000 dollar jeans comment.
If the CSM were doing such a great job at representing players disatisfaction and CCP were listening then sub numbers and players online wouldnt be dropping faster than a hookers panties.
Personally CSM would have been better served carrying on with this press campaign and keeping the pressure up rather than entering yet more meaningless dialogue! CSM only called you in to stop that campaign, who do you think is laughing into their rotten shark?
come back to the community with roadmaps, devblogs, dates, somthing tangible and youll get a better response. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.13 22:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Two step wrote:[quote=Azelor Delaria]
It seems clear to me at least that you have your own crazy conspiracy theories to uphold here, and aren't actually listening to what I am saying. You might try giving that a shot.
Dont accuse me of tinfoil hattery!
It is not a crazy conspiracy to state that the july meeting achieved absolutly nothing. No change in mindset or direction from CCP. It was an abject failure.
It is certainly not a crazy conspircacy to suggest you are being used as a fire break or shall I put it to you in CCP speak to "manage players expectations"
Rather than getting uber defensive why dont you simply listen to us the people whose concerns are driving this in the first place.
You seem to be palpably incapable of understanding a lot of what has been said in this thread. The process was proven fundementally flawed in july and the debacle surrounding the minutes. All you are giving the community is more of the same flawed process.
the only thing CCP listen to is action. Whether that action is to blog in teh gaming press and post here or whether it is to unsubscribe. CSM at least had that strategy right it seems CCP had their strategy right in how to stop you. Rinse and repeat. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.13 22:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Two step wrote:[quote=Temulkar Blaine]
Wow, you sure do have a neat way of showing your apathy. I mean, shouldn't posting here be far too much effort for the truly apathetic?
.
Ah your not actually grasping the meaning of that sentence are you. I am apathetic toewards a process of dialogue with CCP that has proven to be completly ineffective in the past. I am disillusioned by the complete lack of change in direction that has been effected by these "meetings"
That does not mean I dont care about the game or want to see it survive nor am I apathetic about that. simple enough for you? |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 10:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
"CSM 6 looks set to do a better job than CSM 5, but not as a question of effort on the part of previous CSMs."
Statements like this are utterly inapropriate at this point in time. It is hubris on a grand scale to suggest success when eve is in its current state. It is completly disingenuous to suggest you are doing a good job given the results that we have at the moment which amount to absolutly nothing.
Since you were made fools of by CCP in July, I would save the triumphalism until you actually deliver somthing.
At the moment CSM has not effected any change to CCP strategy or plans in the areas that have concerned the community since the release of incarna in June.
The CSM hide behind the NDA like a shield. In this very thread when faced with pertinent questions about tangible results they either start personal attacks or attempt sarcasm (badly).
The CSM is not an elected parliament they are not your direct representitives, they have no power to effect change. The CSM are a talking shop that are being increasingly used by CCP to deflect player crticism and anger whilst effecting no change.
The fact this CSM is so puffed up with self importance about the great job they are doing is astounding given the current state of the game and relations between the players and CCP. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 11:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.
Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.
However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.
I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.
As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.
And I did vote in the election by the way. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 12:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Temulkar Blaine wrote:Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.
Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.
However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.
I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.
As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.
And I did vote in the election by the way. CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction. Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still. Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can.
You are not democratically elected you are elected by democratic process there is a significant difference.
You have no power. You can only effect change if CCP listens to you as pointed out by two step. YOu have no executive decision makers, there is no accountability to the electorate, Your mandate is derived from less than 10% of the game population, not from a popular vote.
You are a talking shop that CCP can choose to take account of or can dismiss and ignore when they so choose. You have no electoral power imbued in the CSM as a body to change that.
You may have dignitas and authority from your position as community leaders, Im sure the goons respect mittens after all but dont mistake that for actual power within a game company. The power in a busuness resides with the owners and investors of that businness not with workers committees or customer satisfaction think tanks.
You do not have any power in any discussion with CCP. It is delusional to claim otherwise. You can express opinions, give feedback, communicate dissatisfaction but you have no power.
You can effect change by direct action, blogging, posting here and contacting the gaming press. You should have continued that until CCP were prepared to come to the community as a whole with clear plans on how they were going to address our concerns. Instead you bent over as soon as CCP asked. You stopped all direct action at the drop of a hat and threw away the one bargaining point you actually had going for you.
Get over yourself Meissa the guys with MBA's in the PR department in Rekjavik are wetting themselves that you have fallen for their blag again. |
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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 13:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
You are mistaking an ability to influence as power to effect change. I am not painting a picture between two extremes I am agreeing with a CSM statement that unless CCP are listening there is nothing they can do. Not my point Two steps.
My posting history should show that I do not post regularly nor do I run down the CSM I voted for it and believe it is important. I have openly acknolwledged their efforts in this thread; nor have I stooped to personal insults despite being subjected to some of the most poorly written invective I have read in some time.
It is neither dishonest nor a fallacy to state that the CSM has no power in fact it is delusional to claim otherwise. It is a customer satisfasction think tank no more. If CCP choose to ignore it even the limited ability to influence is negated and they have been ignored since June as evidenced by their own blogs, posts on here and kugu.
This thread is directly concerned with the failure of the current CSM to effect any change in an issue that for most players is the most pressing and has been since teh June release of Incarna. It is not a judgment on past CSM it is a judgement on a current process that has been proven by all the available evidence to have failed.
Before you accuse me of things I clearly havent done I suggest you read my posts first, you might learn somthing. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 14:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Im not the one putting words into your mouth, you bolded the point about CCP listening that I made, your inferrence was clear. On top of that since the July summit nothing has actually changed has it? no change in direction mindset or communication from CCP towards its playerbase. That alone demonstrates that you were ignored in July.
You can influence, you can represent opinion you can give feedback. You cannot take any decision that would affect this game in any way. You do not have any power to do that. Your lobbyists not an elected government
You can influence through a press campaign and direct action, it was a damn good idea given up on as soon as CCP offered more talks that are even more secretive than the July debacle.
Surely you can understand the scepticism |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 18:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sorry I thought Id made myself clear with subsequent posts
"You can influence, you can represent opinion you can give feedback. You cannot take any decision that would affect this game in any way. You do not have any power to do that. Your lobbyists not an elected government"
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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 19:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Im not wriggling, I will restate it clearly so you understand.
The power resides withn the body of the decision maker. It is the decision makers who effect change.
A lobbyist can affect the decision made by the decision maker but by virtue of their inability to take the decisions themselves they do not have power. |
Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army
BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.09.14 20:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Malcanis, mate I sent you a mail rather than derailing the thread. Yep fine I totally accept that my interpretation of power was narrow, although not within the point i was trying to illustrate. happy to respond if you want to flail me further. |
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